17 May 2008
Why This Site is Here…
Posted by Ivory under: General .
After visiting Cedarlands on May 3rd (2008), I decided I couldn’t just sit back and deal with my reactions alone. Was I the only one that was caught off guard here? Was I somehow negligent by not attending paying enough attention to activities outside our troops?
After a little thinking, I decided to create this site to address four needs:
To vent.
Yup. Sorry. But, it’s the truth. I’m human. I can’t help but look at what happened to the camp and get upset. I’ll do my best to keep that in check as I write these posts, or make notes on the photos and such, but you can fully expect that some of my attitude here is going to leak through.
To learn more.
Rather than just stay upset, though, I decided that I had to learn more. Here’s a list of open questions that I hope to get resolution to:
- Who brought this about?
- Why did they feel this was necessary?
- How well thought out was this process?
- How open was this process?
- Is this what people expected to happen?
- What’s the long term plan?
- How well connected is the plan to the result?
Maybe, if I hear from the right people, I’ll be able to look at this more objectively. Maybe I’m way off base here, and this logging is okay after all. maybe the people who made this happen really didn’t have any good alternatives. Is this the best that can be made of a bad situation? Is this not bad at all, and I’m just un-informed?
Who knows? That’s why I’m asking. I really do want this to be more than just a forum for gripes and whining. I am actively looking for informed and involved parties to participate. (I should note that towards that end, Mark Miller has been very forthright and communicative. He’s been quite generous with providing me with every piece of documentation I’ve asked for. Kudos!)
To share what I learn.
Whatever lessons can be learned here should be openly shared with others. Let’s put all of this on the table for all to view. I can’t be the only person to be surprised by this, and I’d hate to see the reactions of people who will be coming back to Cedarlands expecting the same old camp, and finding it to be very, very different.
I’ve been told that every troop that visited Cedarlands last summer was made aware that this logging would occur. If that’s the case, then this site is just redundant. So be it. No harm done then, eh?
Another purpose here is to perhaps have this site serve as a guide to other councils around the country. They should be able to look here and see what happened. Learn from all the good points, and take guidance from things that could have gone a little smoother.
To bring greater oversight, and if necessary, maybe help change the outcome.
It’s possible that in the discussions that result from these web pages, some other solutions may present themselves. Y’never know. I’d like to keep open the option that if indeed things are not going well at Cedarlands, if things are not turning out to the benefit of the scouts and the camp, that maybe we still have opportunity to adjust the outcome.
Honestly, I feel I have to try. Because if what happened to the first 200 acres is foreplay to what’s about to happen to the remaining 3,000 acres, we’re in deep trouble.
9 Comments so far...
N/A Says:
19 May 2008 at 5:39 pm.
(Comments removed at the request of the original poster)
Ivory Says:
20 May 2008 at 6:17 am.
Actually, I respectfully disagree with you on a couple of points. First, I believe that putting up a web site showing the present state of things and providing a forum where people can politely discuss these issues DOES count as getting involved. And for what it’s worth, I am involved. I volunteer time every week to the best of my ability to give my best to the scouts in our troop, long after my own sons have left the program as Eagles. I’ve done this for nearly 15 years now, and served as pack leader, pack master, and now assistant troop leader.
Second, I did check out the Friends of Cedarlands site before beginning this, and found that most of it was inactive. Other than giving money and offering up free labor, it wasn’t clear what the actual purpose of the organization was. There seemed to be very little activity there, so I decided to start this site.
I don’t doubt that some efforts were made to forewarn people that some logging would occur. Mark Miller and Tom L. made similar assurances, and I have no reason to believe otherwise. What I have concerns about are the effectiveness of the attempts. For whatever reason, many people are shocked at what occurred, and at the apparent scope of the logging.
So what’s everybody else think here?
Have we only ourselves to blame for not properly hearing the message?
Ivory Says:
20 May 2008 at 10:43 am.
FYI… I understand that tonight (5/20) is Program Night. Unfortunately, I am out of town on business travel and am unable to attend. I’d encourage people who are in town to attend. If anybody has details regarding time and location (for those that do not already know), please post the details here. - Thanks.
bouffoc Says:
20 May 2008 at 11:20 am.
John, et al,
I don’t know a lot about forest management, but a few of its goals which I know are:
1. to minimize the risk of fast-spreading forest fires.
2. to minimize risk to people and/or structures in the event of a forest fire.
3. (I’ve just come to find out) to create defensible space within a forest by maintaining a certain basal area density (allowing firefighters and equipment to gain access to the forest to stop a spreading fire. One example density I’ve seen is about 100 trees per acre or ~400sf per tree).
Goals 1&2 would seem to be achieved by the logging which has thus far taken place. This is of course the highest priority, since most of the fire used at the camp would typically be at and around the areas in the photos.
Goal #3 is by necessity secondary in an overgrown forest, but I would suspect that thinning the forest (which also involves the selective cutting mentioned in some of the posts) and clearing brush from the understory will be an ongoing effort (and a good source of firewood!), and something in which Scouts and Scouters can possibly take a more active role (did I hear Eagle Project?).
This summer will be my son’s first year at Cedarlands, so I’ve never seen it before. Having been to Kingsley with him, I would like to know from someone more knowledgeable than myself, is the forest at Kingsley similar to the desired outcome for Cedarlands or am I just way off base? If so, how long is it expected to take to get to that point? If not, what would it look like and how long should that take?
Thanks,
Chris
kenpski Says:
29 May 2008 at 8:41 am.
Greetings to All,
Well here I go again. I watched and listened to both sides and now I feel I need to speak my piece. I looked at the pictures on the Cedarlands Web Site and I was horrified but I realized that I needed to give the Council a chance to respond before getting really upset.
So I check my mail and here it is the latest Scouting News. I eagerly thumbed through to see what the latest on Cedarlands was. There it was an article titled “A Walk Thru Cedarlands” by Tom Labayewski. As I read the article a couple of things became apparent. The First thing is that our Council ( who we trust to plan and run the Scouting Program ) does not seem to have any idea of what is happening on the property entrusted to their care. Did anyone have a PLAN or did we just say “CUT WHAT EVER YOU WANT “. What was discussed at the meetings with the “FORESTER”. Did anyone from the Council visit the Camp while cutting was going on to protect our interests.
The Second thing that jumped out at me is that “RATIONALIZATION “ is apparently rampant in the Council. Clear cutting is good because we need a bigger parking area. Skid roads are good because they are much wider and straighter than “meandering” paths through the woods. Opening up the Campsites is good so they can get air and dry out. We have plenty of new places to put tents and patrol areas and fire altars. Plenty of firewood will be available. And the BIG ONE — It was done in the name of SAFETY.
The third thing is that now that the damage has been done we need help to get things back to looking like a camp again. The article asks for anyone with ideas to let them know what can be done (see First thing above about plan). I HOPE some of you have some constructive ideas and can help.
I myself will probably be “vilanized” because I can not give any more time to the Scouting Program than I already give. I am sorry that I do not have time for District and Council meetings but I am a lowly poor volunteer who tries to balance Scouting with the rest of my life. I don’t have the time to become more involved in the everyday decisions that have to be made to run the Council so I trust those that are able to do more. I go to the weekly Troop meetings. I go to the Committee meetings. I go as many camping trips as I can. I help plan the outings for the Troop. I stick with Scouting because I believe in it and I love to see the BOYS having fun in the outdoors.
I won’t say anymore about the Council until I see how the New Exec handles things but I hope the next slash and burn concept is not in the Forest but at the HQ building.
Now I guess from reading the Posts some did not want to be identified and neither do I so I will not say that I am
Kenneth Puchalski
Assistant Scoutmaster Troop 44
Over 25 Years in Scouting and Proud of It
Email pski@moric.org
ConScout Says:
2 June 2008 at 11:59 am.
Never mind the aerial photos. I went back and looked at the ground level photos. Where are all the large trees? No foliage or not on the trees, the trunks of the trees obviously shows that most of the trees left are young and not much for shade. And there are areas where there are no trees. Is this “wilderness”? I know this camp…so I know what was where prior to the logging. No amount of rhetoric can make things look good. Hopefully, volunteers are working at cleaning up the actual troop sites prior to summer camp (unless, it was part of the bargain that the loggers are to clean them NOW before summer.) Just pray for a season of just enough rain so as to not have a danger of forest fires…because if the rain is torrential, as it can be there, is there enough ground cover to stop mudslides and mudholes?
since1984 Says:
3 September 2008 at 1:23 pm.
I have excitedly visited Cedarlands since 1984 only missing two years, what I experienced this year (2008) appalled and greatly saddened me.
The fresh cool breezes around base camp of untouched forests that enchanted me since the first moment I visited them were missing. All around me was the smell of spilled petroleum, wide logging paths, scarred trees, trampled plant life; most every large tree removed leaving a hot and sunny faint shadow of a once unspoiled wilderness.
The land managed by Boy Scouts should follow basic principals taught by Boy Scouts; has any Boy Scout managing Cedarlands ever heard of the Boy Scout Forestry Badge or Leave NO Trace? I really thought the objective of Scouting is to empower people, spreading a higher level of knowledge of our environment; now it seems they must save us from the dangerous trees and dangerous people.
There are extremely valid fire safety and expansion arguments to clear designated sections of the forest but not using most every inch of land they “protect” as a cash crop. The forest will grow back but without its natural look and original ecosystem; trees, plants, animals, soil, water and rocks have all been altered by man in a manner that can not be undone within anyone’s lifetime. Forest fires and natural events can wipe a forest clean but on nature’s terms, most plants and animals having built in responses to natural events. What impact does man have on an environment when rearranging every aspect of it?
Great care should be taken to responsively develop and encourage more visitors to this Adirondack jewel in a manner that follows the Boy Scout principles, not mismanaged need for money betraying the very principals they teach. The Scouts have done their best in past years but have all but abandoned Scout principals with the current rearrangement of the forest they manage, even betraying the motto of the Adirondack Park “Forever Wild”. My only hope is that the damage apparent to anyone that visits this land can use what they see all around them as an example of what NOT to do!
Kylie Batt Says:
11 April 2010 at 5:28 pm.
пройду мимо……
специалист сектора ипотечного кредитования After visiting Cedarlands on May 3rd (2008), I decided I couldn’t just sit back and deal with my reactions a…
Kylie Batt Says:
3 May 2010 at 11:15 pm.
молодчаги!…
Руководитель IT отдела After a little thinking, I decided to create […….
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